Githae Githinji with Tyler Cowen
Show: Conversations with Tyler
Reformatted for readability — timestamps removed, lightly restructured. Not verbatim. For exact quotes, refer to the original transcript.
Tyler Cowen
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler. Today I’m sitting here in Tatu City, right outside of Nairobi, Kenya, and I’ll be chatting with Githae Githinji. He’s a businessman in the transport industry, and he’s a Kikuyu elder. He’s stationed at Tatu City, where he’s a chairman. His roles as chairman include dispute resolution and also coordinating community ceremonies. His most recent activity as the elders’ chairman for the area around Tatu City was planning and coordinating the cleansing ceremony of a Mugumo tree being moved into Tatu City. Gitahi is 58 years old. He is from the Agikuyu community. He is born and raised in Mukurweini, Nyeri County, the central region of Kenya. He resides now in Kiambu County, where he has also established his business. Githae, welcome.
Githae Githinji
Welcome also.
Tyler Cowen
Thank you for talking with me.
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
What is your business? Could you tell us?
Githae Githinji
I deal with transports.
Tyler Cowen
Transports. What does that mean specifically?
Githae Githinji
I have matatus, and I have small vehicles which I normally deliver for commercial purposes.
Tyler Cowen
You own the vehicles. You sell them to businesses, to individuals, or who are your customers?
Githae Githinji
No, I do transport. Let’s say transporting people from Ruiru to Nairobi.
Tyler Cowen
You drive them from one place to another?
Githae Githinji
I don’t. I own.
Tyler Cowen
I see.
Githae Githinji
So I employ people who do that job. I manage my business.
Tyler Cowen
When you look for good drivers who will do good work, what qualities do you look for in them?
Githae Githinji
A driver who is competent in what he’s doing.
Tyler Cowen
How do you tell if they’re good? When you talk to them, you have an interview, what do you ask? Or how do you approach that?
Githae Githinji
Normally, I do test them, me personally, see whether somebody has all the requirements to be a driver — you need to have all the documents that are required by the government — and then his ability to do that job.
Tyler Cowen
How can you tell who will be a good driver or not a good driver?
Githae Githinji
It’s a person who is qualified in that skill.
Tyler Cowen
So, the main thing is the license.
Githae Githinji
The main thing is the license, plus the other government documents and whether somebody is sober.
Tyler Cowen
Sober?
Githae Githinji
Yes. Sober, I mean, you can’t employ some others who are drunkards, who can cause lot of things. You have to look for somebody who is a little bit educated, who knows responsibility. Or a person who can handle that vehicle itself.
Tyler Cowen
Yes, I understand. The part of Kenya where you’re from, that’s Mukurweini, right?
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
What is special about that part of Kenya?
Githae Githinji
The part of Kenya, Mukurweini, well, as I could say, I left the place a long time ago. The moment I finished my school, I came here to Ruiru, and that’s why I established myself here in Ruiru. I left my motherland.
Tyler Cowen
Why did you leave there?
Githae Githinji
I was just coming to look for good pastures here.
Tyler Cowen
Just for better jobs?
Githae Githinji
Yes. When I came here, I was employed here. When I got employed here, I invested here. I got a piece of plot here, on which I built, so I reside here now.
Tyler Cowen
Where you come from, do you miss it in any way, or you’re just happier to be here?
Githae Githinji
No, I just go there visiting.
Tyler Cowen
Just visiting.
Githae Githinji
Even though I lost my mother and father, I just go and visit my brothers who are there.
Tyler Cowen
Why do you think you left and they didn’t? What’s the difference?
Githae Githinji
That is a rural area. We don’t have a lot of job opportunities like we have here in Kiambu or in Nairobi.
Tyler Cowen
Even apart from jobs, if you just think about living there, is it more exciting to live here or more interesting to live there?
Githae Githinji
Well, I would say it’s more interesting to live here because if I may think of job opportunities, or looking for something, here it’s more convenient. More than the rural area.
Tyler Cowen
Your native language from the family is Kiswahili, right?
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
You learned English here, or you learned it in school?
Githae Githinji
Kiswahili?
Tyler Cowen
No, but that [Kiswahili] you grew up speaking, right?
Githae Githinji
I grew up speaking Kikuyu.
Tyler Cowen
Kikuyu. Okay.
Githae Githinji
Yes, Kikuyu is my main language.
Tyler Cowen
What other languages do you speak?
Githae Githinji
The other language is Kiswahili.
Tyler Cowen
Yes, and English, of course.
Githae Githinji
English, eventually.
Tyler Cowen
How did you learn those?
Githae Githinji
From school.
Tyler Cowen
When you were growing up as a boy?
Githae Githinji
Yes, when I was growing as a young boy. I went up to Form 4 [last year of secondary school].
Tyler Cowen
If you think about Africa as a whole, do you think you’re lucky to live in Kenya, or you wish you were somewhere else? Or how do you view Kenya within Africa?
Githae Githinji
Kenya is a good country.
Tyler Cowen
What makes it good?
Githae Githinji
It makes it good for — actually, the way I have stayed here, I’ve never seen bad things.
Tyler Cowen
In terms of violence or disorder?
Githae Githinji
There’s no violence. People here are very peaceful.
Tyler Cowen
You think the economy is pretty good for Africa?
Githae Githinji
Well, I would say it’s good.
Tyler Cowen
How did you come to have your role in Tatu City?
Githae Githinji
In Tatu City, where I reside is just near the Tatu City area. As the community, we just have groupings where we go and you are shown how Kikuyus . . . Our tradition, we normally do enjoin and have our own ways of conducting our own selves. I joined those wazees [elders] and I was initiated to that group. I became so active to an extent that even then, they felt the role I’m playing to them, I need to be their elder and they chose me as the chairman.
Tyler Cowen
Okay, I understand. What makes you good at that? What’s your quality that makes you a good elder?
Githae Githinji
It’s because of knowing how to coordinate people in the best way. If you are a violent man, I just come, I talk with you in a polite way, we understand one another. I show you how you are supposed to live with the other people. I show you the goodness of peace and such kind of things.
Tyler Cowen
It’s a lot of experience dealing with people.
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
What would be a typical dispute that you have to decide or resolve?
Githae Githinji
A lot of them.
Tyler Cowen
What would be an example? What might happen where they need you?
Githae Githinji
Example?
Tyler Cowen
Yes.
Githae Githinji
Let’s say if there’s a fight between a man and a man, if there’s a person who have, let’s say, got somebody’s property, such kind of things, we sit down, talk it out. Somebody shooting the other, domestic violence, all of that.
Tyler Cowen
What do you do that the court system does not do? Because you’re not police, but still you do something useful.
Githae Githinji
What we normally do, we as a group, we listen to one another very much. When one person reaches that stage of being told that you are a man now, you normally have to respect your elder. Those people do respect me. When I call you, when I tell you “Come and we’ll talk it out,” with my group, you cannot say you cannot come, because if you do, we normally discipline somebody. Not by beating, we just remove you from our group. When we isolate you from our group, you’ll feel that is not fair for you. You come back and say — and apologize. We take you back into the group.
Tyler Cowen
If you’re isolated, you can’t be friends with those people anymore.
Githae Githinji
When we isolate you, we mean you are not allowed to interact in any way.
Tyler Cowen
Any way.
Githae Githinji
Any business, anything with the other community [members]. If it is so, definitely, you have to be a loser, because you might be needing one of those people to help you in business or something of the sort. When you are isolated, this man tells you, “No. Go and cleanse yourself first with that group.”
Tyler Cowen
Does your family reject you also, or just your friends?
Githae Githinji
If your family rejects you, that is a family dispute. If it comes to that, we take it in another way, because we have to know first, how does that dispute arise? It might be that your wife is the one who has a problem. For that, we don’t interfere so much. We leave it to the family.
Tyler Cowen
If the man has the problem?
Githae Githinji
If the family has a problem also, we chip in and we help them to resolve that dispute.
Tyler Cowen
By talking to both of them.
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
Talking to get them to agree again.
Githae Githinji
Talking to both of the parties. Yes.
Tyler Cowen
What’s the biggest family problem that you see? The most common one.
Githae Githinji
The most common one is, it happens when one man is so drunk, [he] beats the woman, chases the woman, or the woman pushes with other men. Let’s call it adultery. When she does that, at least we do normally chip in to resolve that issue, but [it’s] not [the] most common. That one, we normally leave it to the family. Not unless the family comes to us and tells us, “We need help in this.” We normally don’t like so much interfering in the family matters.
Tyler Cowen
Problems with children? You deal with those, or not so much?
Githae Githinji
In form of children, yes, we normally do, because in our group as men, we initiate small boys from childhood to adulthood. We circumcise. When you reach the age, we have groupings where we circumcise all Kikuyu boys. Kikuyu, Embu, boys from Meru. GEMA, that is our community. We call it GEMA community, the group of that community. We do have groups where we have our own doctors, qualified doctors. Let’s say, like last year, we had one in Githunguri, here in Githunguri Primary School. That is where we were. We had 350 boys whom we initiated. We help them, we call them, we talk with them, tell them the rite of passage that one person is going [through], educate them, and after that, we stay with those boys for 10 days.
Tyler Cowen
10 days?
Githae Githinji
Until that boy is healed.
Tyler Cowen
How old is the boy at this point?
Githae Githinji
At this point is when he finishes Standard 8 [last year of upper primary school].
Tyler Cowen
Okay.
Githae Githinji
While now he’s going to Form 1 [first year of secondary school]. We make sure we mentor that boy. At the same time, after the boy goes back to the parents, the following year, we make sure we prepare a seminar. We call them [the parents], because we do normally follow them up to see whether this boy has good behaviors or whatever. If he tries to be misbehaved, let’s say, [drinking] beer and the rest, we talk to that boy. We make sure that we are molding somebody who can be able to come and join the community.
Tyler Cowen
There’s a ceremony surrounding this initiation? Are there parties, or people get together, or how does that work?
Githae Githinji
What happens, we have the doctors who initiate the boy, and we have old men coordinated by me, if it’s in my area that I’m the chairman [of] now. They are the wazees who talk with these children. Show them how to live and whatever.
Tyler Cowen
If there was a problem you could fix in your community, one thing you could improve, what would it be?
Githae Githinji
What I would wish very much, for example, like you people, when you come to this place, just try to help us, the area people. Try to come, bonding [with] these people, because you have come, you got these people. If you bond with them, we also welcome you as our brother, which is so good.
Tyler Cowen
Kikuyu people in Kenya, do you think they’re different from the other groups, or the culture is different? How would you describe that?
Githae Githinji
All the groups have their own culture. If it’s Kikuyu, they have their own. If it’s Luos, they have their own. This is something that we met. It is not something that we are creating. It is from our old grand-grandfathers.
Tyler Cowen
How would you describe what is special about Kikuyu culture?
Githae Githinji
What I would describe about them, they are good. That is one thing. I’m not saying they are good because I’m a Kikuyu. I’m saying [it] because they are hardworking people.
Tyler Cowen
Many people say they’re very good at business.
Githae Githinji
They are friendly and good businesspeople. Yes. They are business minded. They are not lazy people.
Tyler Cowen
Not lazy. Do you think they’re more extroverted, more open?
Githae Githinji
More than. Even if you go to any part of this country, there’s nowhere you can go and don’t find a Kikuyu. If you move from here to Mombasa, you will get a lot of Kikuyus. If you go everywhere, Kikuyus are always there. They like interacting with the other communities.
Tyler Cowen
The way marriage works for Kikuyu, is it different from the other groups?
Githae Githinji
Marriage?
Tyler Cowen
Marriage, courtship, how you decide whom to marry, the ceremony, everything. Is it the same or different?
Githae Githinji
There’s no difference, because we also marry other communities. A Kikuyu is allowed to marry a Kamba. Yes, we intermarry with those communities.
Tyler Cowen
You marry at the same age, younger, older, or that’s all the same?
Githae Githinji
It depends on the feeling of that one person. You can marry whomever you want. Yes, you are free. We don’t have limitations, that you should marry this, or that, or that, but we do not encourage old men to marry small children.
Tyler Cowen
Sure. Of course not.
Githae Githinji
That’s not good.
Tyler Cowen
How many children do you think a typical family wants to have now? In Nairobi?
Githae Githinji
In Nairobi, mostly as I can see, now these young people are preferring two, three.
Tyler Cowen
Two or three.
Githae Githinji
In our times, in our old wazees, like in my family, my father had eight.
Tyler Cowen
Eight?
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
Which do you think is better?
Githae Githinji
According to today’s economy, I would say we don’t much get 10 children, which you won’t be able to look at after. It is better you have three or four, whom you know very well, you are going to cater to them until their adulthood.
Tyler Cowen
There were some countries where families just have one. Is that weird to you? You go to Korea, people have, on average, about one. A little less, actually.
Githae Githinji
Average of one is not good, because accidents do normally happen.
Tyler Cowen
Sure.
Githae Githinji
If you have one child, and he dies, you are left with nothing. Why? Get two or three. In the case of anything, you are left with something. If you have one and he dies, and you are old, you cannot get another one. Do you see, you’d be left like that?
Tyler Cowen
Yes. Children here, do they take good care of their parents and grandparents?
Githae Githinji
Yes, they do it. They do.
Tyler Cowen
That’s expected? It’s part of the culture.
Githae Githinji
It is this, but we don’t force them to. It will depend on your relationship between your children and you, your own self. Because there are some men or women who do not care for their children. They just get the children, and they let them go away. It’s good to interact with children. Show them you are their father, show them you are their mother. These children will give back. The way you bring up children is the way they will also give back to you.
Tyler Cowen
Today, the grandparents, do they help bring up the children, even if there’s only two?
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
They still do?
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
What if the family has moved to Nairobi, moved to Mombasa, and the grandparents are far away? How do things work?
Githae Githinji
For us Kikuyus, if somebody lives far, we do normally meet. Let’s say, during the holidays, you make sure you go home, you enjoy it with them.
Tyler Cowen
How do you get home? You take a bus?
Githae Githinji
You take a bus, or if you have means, you have a vehicle, you just go there.
Tyler Cowen
Just drive? Yes.
Githae Githinji
Yes, drive, stay with your family for at least two or three days, then you go back to your job.
Tyler Cowen
Now, I have read in the newspapers, the cost of living in Kenya is much higher now than a few years ago.
Githae Githinji
It is.
Tyler Cowen
Why did that happen?
Githae Githinji
I don’t know whether it’s because of the population. I don’t know whether it’s because of the development we have here. Actually, for that one, I cannot tell you the . . . But it’s because of . . . We have a high — what do we call it? Let’s say, if you look in one way or another, the climate has changed. When the climate has changed, we don’t have enough food. Do you get me, right? When we don’t have enough food, you expect that life has to be harder, because there are some people who depend on the rain. Do you get me, right? From that, if you go to, let’s say, to a place like in Nairobi right now, as we are living, the cost of living also is so high. Cost. Let me talk about the sector I’m in: transportation. Life is very hard because of the increase of petroleum. Because, if I could say, the price of petrol is too high, and I cannot be able to hike the price for the person whom I’m carrying, because these people don’t have money. I have to dig deeper into my pocket to sustain what is being added in the petrol [price].
Tyler Cowen
What do you think should be done to change things because it costs so much?
Githae Githinji
What needs to be done is now . . . That is now up to the government now, to know how they are going to look at their people. Yes, because we now, we are tied up.
Tyler Cowen
Do you know what should be changed to improve this thing?
Githae Githinji
Because, one, if we say the climate, that is up to God now. We have to pray to God now to give us good rains. Like this year we had good rains. What we could do is, we know why we are not having enough rain.
Tyler Cowen
Why?
Githae Githinji
We plant a lot of trees. We stop logging. We plant a lot of trees so that we could get enough rain. When we go back to the side of the government now, the government — it’s for them to know how they’re going to regularize these prices, so that at least life should be a little bit . . . Yes.
Tyler Cowen
Do you use mobile money to buy things? Money in your smartphone?
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
How does that work for you? That’s easy, that’s hard, or how is it?
Githae Githinji
It is not hard. It’s easy, because when we get money, nowadays we even use phones when we are paying things. It’s better because we don’t lose a lot of money when we use, even though there’s a lot of tax in it.
Tyler Cowen
Do you order things online? You buy online and someone sends it to you?
Githae Githinji
No, for me I don’t.
Tyler Cowen
Younger people do, or?
Githae Githinji
Young people do.
Tyler Cowen
What kind of things do they buy online?
Githae Githinji
Oh, normally they buy things that they don’t have — you don’t have here.
Tyler Cowen
Things from other countries.
Githae Githinji
From other countries, like vehicles, kitchen wares and whatever, even building materials. They do normally do it.
Tyler Cowen
Why don’t you buy online?
Githae Githinji
Me, I’m a little bit analog. [laughter]
Tyler Cowen
Do you listen to YouTube at all?
Githae Githinji
It’s rarely.
Tyler Cowen
What do you listen to?
Githae Githinji
The common radio.
Tyler Cowen
Common radio?
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
What kind of music? Banga music, or you listen to Congo music?
Githae Githinji
Traditional music.
Tyler Cowen
Traditional?
Githae Githinji
Our traditional music, yes.
Tyler Cowen
What kind of traditional? Kikuyu?
Githae Githinji
I like the Kikuyu or Luo music, whichever. I like those very much.
Tyler Cowen
This will be on the radio. Do you like music from other African countries?
Githae Githinji
Definitely, yes.
Tyler Cowen
What else do you like?
Githae Githinji
Oh, you are talking of?
Tyler Cowen
What you like. Yes, Nigeria. There’s a lot of Nigerian music in America now.
Githae Githinji
All countries.
Tyler Cowen
All countries?
Githae Githinji
Yes, the only thing the music should . . . Whichever music, if it’s good. [chuckles]
Tyler Cowen
Do you listen to any American music?
Githae Githinji
If it chances to be on the air, I do.
Tyler Cowen
You do?
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
What do you listen to?
Githae Githinji
Whichever music is being . . .
Tyler Cowen
Whichever is playing on the radio?
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
You have public utilities, right? You get electricity, water. How good are those services?
Githae Githinji
The services that we are being given by . . .
Tyler Cowen
That you get. Your electricity, is it reliable?
Githae Githinji
Yes, it is. It is.
Tyler Cowen
And your water?
Githae Githinji
Even the water, we have enough water.
Tyler Cowen
You have enough water?
Githae Githinji
Yes, from these boreholes. We are getting water from these.
Tyler Cowen
You get water from a well, or from piping, or how does your water come?
Githae Githinji
Let’s say in our area, this area we have now, we have people who supply water from wells, and also from the county government.
Tyler Cowen
Yes, and you feel that’s safe water?
Githae Githinji
We could say it’s safe because what they normally do when we get this water, they treat it so that we can consume it.
Tyler Cowen
What are some of the other expenses for a family in Kenya? There’s food, transportation, rent. What else is a big problem?
Githae Githinji
Education.
Tyler Cowen
Education?
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
If you send your kid to school, the kid is 10, the school is free, or you have to pay?
Githae Githinji
You have to pay.
Tyler Cowen
Even for government school?
Githae Githinji
In government [schools], you also have to pay, but little money. Yes.
Tyler Cowen
You think the schools are good?
Githae Githinji
I would say it’s good because I’m used to those schools. We don’t have more, but we can’t say they’re better than those. You normally adapt what you see or what you get there.
Tyler Cowen
Funerals, do they cost a lot of money?
Githae Githinji
Now, for the funeral, it depends on the family. Because for the funeral, if the family feels they’re going to buy an expensive hearse or coffin, it’s on them. That one depends on how the family is, because there are some who don’t require a lot of money; there are some who like to use a lot of money. That one will normally depend on how the family is.
Tyler Cowen
The family pays for everything, or the community shares the cost?
Githae Githinji
Most of the times for the funerals, the communities chip in.
Tyler Cowen
Who decides how much people pay?
Githae Githinji
Nobody decides. You give what you have. You are not being forced to, “You have to give this.” No.
Tyler Cowen
People who have more money, they give more money?
Githae Githinji
Definitely, yes.
Tyler Cowen
Do you ever have disputes over this that you have to judge?
Githae Githinji
No.
Tyler Cowen
Because they always agree?
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
I’m surprised they always agree. In my country, they would not always agree.
Githae Githinji
I don’t know why. In this country of ours, we don’t do it like that.
Tyler Cowen
If you could change something about the government in Kenya, what would you change? What’s the biggest problem?
Githae Githinji
If I could?
Tyler Cowen
You could change something about government here. They would do something new, stop doing something bad, change some law. What would you change?
Githae Githinji
For that one, I couldn’t say. There’s nothing I can or cannot change, because I depend with what my government tells me to do.
Tyler Cowen
Yes. So, there’s nothing you can change?
Githae Githinji
Not unless the government comes in and tells me, “Change this and change this.” They are our leaders, and we have elected them, so we have to follow what they tell us to do.
Tyler Cowen
Sometimes, do you wish they would tell you different things?
Githae Githinji
We, as elders, we don’t dispute with the governments.
Tyler Cowen
You don’t dispute?
Githae Githinji
Yes, we don’t.
Tyler Cowen
You help enforce it in a way, right?
Githae Githinji
We don’t force them to do things, we depend on what they tell us.
Tyler Cowen
Women’s rights movements in Kenya: Do you see a lot of that? Feminism, bigger role for women, more women working?
Githae Githinji
For women, let’s say, I can’t talk much, even though they have their own rights.
Tyler Cowen
What do you think of feminism in Kenya? That women should work, have equal say as the men, have more rights?
Githae Githinji
No, no, no, we are all equal here.
Tyler Cowen
All equal.
Githae Githinji
Women have their rights, and we do have our own rights.
Tyler Cowen
Yes. So, you think women have equal rights already?
Githae Githinji
Even though when we come to our community, there are some stages that we limit. You cannot expect a woman to be in control in a manly home. No.
Tyler Cowen
In government, how many women are there?
Githae Githinji
That one I can’t say.
Tyler Cowen
The president is not a woman, right?
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
People in the legislature, there are mostly men?
Githae Githinji
No, even women. We created another . . . Let’s say, in the Senate we have women reps, so that they could bring that, the gender [ratio], to be almost the same.
Tyler Cowen
How was it here during times of COVID? Was it a big change, or not so much?
Githae Githinji
By then life was too hard, because that was something that we were not used to. We had a very hard time.
Tyler Cowen
Things closed down, or everything stayed open?
Githae Githinji
Things closed down. We had to stay indoors. There was a lot of curfew. The times that you needed to work, you were told, “No, you can’t go.”
Tyler Cowen
How many people got COVID?
Githae Githinji
Actually, I cannot tell you the actual figure, but a lot of people.
Tyler Cowen
Did you?
Githae Githinji
No, I didn’t.
Tyler Cowen
You were lucky?
Githae Githinji
Let’s say, it was God, because I also went for the vaccination. I took the medication, so I thought . . .
Tyler Cowen
You took the vaccine?
Githae Githinji
Yes, I did.
Tyler Cowen
Most people did here?
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
Which vaccine was it? Chinese, American, do you know? British?
Githae Githinji
They were all. The people were taking all.
Tyler Cowen
All?
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
Do you know which one you had?
Githae Githinji
I can’t remember, actually.
Tyler Cowen
How was it to stay at home for so long? Was that hard?
Githae Githinji
It was hard. It was tough, because you cannot expect being told at once, “Stay at home,” and you are not used to it. It was too hard.
Tyler Cowen
Yes, I think it was very hard in many places.
Githae Githinji
Yes, and we lost a lot.
Tyler Cowen
A lot of people died.
Githae Githinji
Even economically, we lost a lot. I think that time of COVID is the one that brought even these hardships we have even today. We have not yet returned to our normal because of that period.
Tyler Cowen
How much do you worry about crime? People stealing things from you. Is crime a big problem for you, or do you feel it’s very safe?
Githae Githinji
Some time back, let’s say in two or three years ago, there were a lot of crimes, but nowadays, the government has tried to regularize the crime in these areas of ours.
Tyler Cowen
With more police, or what do they do?
Githae Githinji
Not even more police: Also involving the community. The government decided to introduce this thing we call Nyumba Kumi. When it was introduced, the Nyumba Kumi, if they noted there was somebody who was not good in that family, they had to report to the nearest so that that person could be dealt with. It did help a lot. At the same time, they also used the wazees and whatever in the community to identify all these thugs and whatever.
Tyler Cowen
You think crime will keep on getting better in Kenya?
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
For this reason?
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
Why do you think crime is worse in Nairobi than in smaller cities?
Githae Githinji
Definitely, you expect because the life in town is harsher than in the rural areas.
Tyler Cowen
It’s just tougher to live there.
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
Costs are higher, you need more money.
Githae Githinji
In town you need money, and when you need money and don’t have a job, you expect yourself to drive yourself to such kind of things.
Tyler Cowen
What do you think is the biggest problem in the slums? If you go to, what, Majengo, one of the slums?
Githae Githinji
Employment.
Tyler Cowen
Employment. So, not enough good jobs?
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
Future jobs for Kenya, what do you think they will be?
Githae Githinji
The future jobs in Kenya? That’s what I was saying, if we could have people who can help in getting us good jobs and whatever, trying to help these young people get jobs, I think we could just minimize these kind of hardships that these young boys get.
Tyler Cowen
When President Obama visited Kenya, I think it was 2015, did you care? Were you excited? You don’t care? What do you think?
Githae Githinji
Well, for such a person visiting here, everybody was excited because it was even being told that his roots are in Kenya. We were happy about that man coming to visit us. We see our brother who has gone somewhere and become a great person.
Tyler Cowen
He’s still very popular here.
Githae Githinji
Yes, more than. He is popular.
Tyler Cowen
The Kenyans who move to America, what do people think of them? They’re happy, or they view them as totally different now? What’s the image?
Githae Githinji
For that one I can’t say much because I’ve never visited that area.
Tyler Cowen
You haven’t been to America, but people talk about those who leave, right?
Githae Githinji
At the same time, I don’t have a relative who has been there.
Tyler Cowen
How about Kenyans who go to England?
Githae Githinji
Actually, they normally say when they go there they get good, the place is good, or such kind of a thing.
Tyler Cowen
Do you think they’re happier, or do you think they’re happier here? The ones who leave?
Githae Githinji
Definitely, that one I cannot answer because, I told you, I have never had a relative who can talk one on one and tell me.
Tyler Cowen
There was a change in the constitution of Kenya. It gave a lot more power to the counties, right? Was that a good idea?
Githae Githinji
Yes, it was a good idea because the help that the government used to give the community, when it was devolved to the people, it became so nearer to the people, more than when it was in the national government. Because if there is anything like development and whatever, that money is in the counties. It’s easier for the governor to deal with this work than it was in the national government, yes.
Tyler Cowen
I’m sure you know many foreigners come here to see safari, to see animals, elephants. Do you care about these animals? Are you excited, or you’ve seen so many it’s just ordinary for you? What’s your attitude?
Githae Githinji
We do care about [them], because it is even a boost for us for the revenue. When new people come, we ship in something.
Tyler Cowen
We spend money here.
Githae Githinji
Yes, you spend money here, and our economy is boosted a little bit.
Tyler Cowen
If you see an elephant, you personally, are you excited? Or do you say, “Oh, I’ve seen a thousand elephants. I don’t care.”
Githae Githinji
I’m also excited because we are not mostly used to it. The things that cannot excite me is this thing you are living with here time and again. Let’s say something like a dog, a cat, domestic things. We cannot be excited for such kind of things. But when you go get a leopard there, at least you have to be excited.
Tyler Cowen
Which animal excites you the most to see?
Githae Githinji
Who, me?
Tyler Cowen
You. Hippo?
Githae Githinji
Something like a lion. [laughs]
Tyler Cowen
Lion?
Githae Githinji
Yes, because I’m not used to it so much.
Tyler Cowen
The lions — if you see one, are you afraid? Or maybe they’re afraid of you.
Githae Githinji
You have to be afraid because you have the experience that if it chances to get you, it’s going to eat you.
Tyler Cowen
Do you ever go on a safari as a guide? Or do you go to Maasai Mara to see the animals?
Githae Githinji
Well, I normally don’t, because in my area in Nyeri, I just see these animals openly there.
Tyler Cowen
You just see them normally. You don’t need to go anywhere.
Githae Githinji
There’s no point of going to all that much spending, and I could see them on my way home.
Tyler Cowen
Have you seen leopard? Many people say leopard is hard to see.
Githae Githinji
Yes, I do. In our area, we have those leopards.
Tyler Cowen
You see all the different birds in your area, or many of them?
Githae Githinji
Yes. I do see them.
Tyler Cowen
Is that interesting to you, the birds?
Githae Githinji
It is not that much interesting because I’m used to them.
Tyler Cowen
What do you think is the attitude here towards China, Chinese people? Do you think they’re welcome, or there’s prejudice, or?
Githae Githinji
Well, what we normally do here in our country, if somebody is coming to help us, then you expect us to be friendly with that person, but if somebody’s coming to bring problems with that, we’d say, “No, that’s not a good person.”
Tyler Cowen
You think China has helped Kenya overall?
Githae Githinji
Well, I could say yes, because they have come to help our young boys. When they come to do the roads and whatever, they employ our young boys and whatever, who are unemployed.
Tyler Cowen
They build roads, they build buildings, and that’s good for people.
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
Does America help you at all?
Githae Githinji
They also do.
Tyler Cowen
What do we do to help?
Githae Githinji
Because when they come and start their projects or whatever — when, let’s say, we see these people, like these who came to Tatu City, they’re also helping us because they come and we get these industries here. These industries — they employ our youth, which is a boost to living here.
Tyler Cowen
Are there groups of people who come who don’t help? Who make things worse?
Githae Githinji
I couldn’t say so, because I’ve not gone to that study so much.
Tyler Cowen
Do you worry about Kenya’s neighbors? You have a border with Ethiopia, but there’s been a big war in Ethiopia. Do you worry this will affect Kenya? Somalia, right?
Githae Githinji
I do worry, but definitely, I can do nothing, because we don’t know why those people are fighting. They have their own domestic things there. I prefer to mind my own.
Tyler Cowen
If you help them with dispute resolution, do you think you could improve it for them?
Githae Githinji
If it can be, if we can do that, it’s good. We can help them if we can. If we can reach there and be able to help with disputes and whatever, it’s good. It is always good to have friendly ties and get your neighbor without a lot of vitas [war] and whatever, fighting and whatever. It’s good to have a good neighbor.
Tyler Cowen
Yes. A lot of people from India live in Kenya, of course. They’ve lived here maybe 100 years, the families. Do you think of them as Kenyan, or do you think still it’s like different? You think they’re Indian?
Githae Githinji
What I believe, if you come here — let’s say, you come here, and you acquire property here, if you get a child when you are here, I would say that child is a Kenyan. You’re not supposed to be chased by anybody. You have decided to come. You’re also a human being. I believe I can go and live anywhere as long as I’m accommodated there.
Tyler Cowen
Do you like Indian food?
Githae Githinji
I wouldn’t say whether I like it or not because I’ve never . . .
Tyler Cowen
You don’t eat it.
Githae Githinji
I don’t eat it. I’ve never [crosstalk] . . .
Tyler Cowen
You eat ugali, Kenyan food.
Githae Githinji
Yes, I’m used to my normal food.
Tyler Cowen
You like ugali?
Githae Githinji
More than.
Tyler Cowen
What else do you eat? For a normal meal, what else do you eat, besides ugali?
Githae Githinji
Nyama choma.
Tyler Cowen
What is that?
Githae Githinji
Nyama choma? Nyama choma, it is the meat we slaughter from our goats and whatever.
Tyler Cowen
Does goat meat here have a special or sacred status? Is it the best meat?
Githae Githinji
Well, I would say yes, because when we are doing our sacrifices, we men, we Kikuyu, we normally use those goats, those lambs.
Tyler Cowen
That’s your favorite food?
Githae Githinji
Not really.
Tyler Cowen
What’s your favorite?
Githae Githinji
Vegetables.
Tyler Cowen
What kind?
Githae Githinji
At my age I don’t prefer eating a lot of meat so much. I prefer taking these local foods.
Tyler Cowen
What kinds of vegetables might you have here?
Githae Githinji
Here?
Tyler Cowen
Yes, that you eat.
Githae Githinji
We do have a lot of them.
Tyler Cowen
What would you eat? A normal meal?
Githae Githinji
Definitely, yes. I do.
Tyler Cowen
The young people, do they eat the same things you eat, or they eat very different things?
Githae Githinji
Young people prefer taking these junk foods. Those from the supermarkets, chips and whatever, of which is not really good for them. They should eat the foods that we wazees eat that can live longer and live a little bit healthier.
Tyler Cowen
Are you religious? Do you go to church?
Githae Githinji
Yes, I do.
Tyler Cowen
Christian, or Muslim, or?
Githae Githinji
I’m a Christian.
Tyler Cowen
Christian. What kind? Protestant?
Githae Githinji
No, I’m a Catholic.
Tyler Cowen
Catholic.
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
What about Catholic is more appealing to you?
Githae Githinji
I was brought up a Catholic, from my childhood, and I came to like it, because Catholics are not all that much controversial.
Tyler Cowen
Being religious, does that help your work as community elder?
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
How does that relate? How does it connect?
Githae Githinji
When you are near to God, you are near to people also.
Tyler Cowen
The people respect you more?
Githae Githinji
More than.
Tyler Cowen
You think the religion gives you some wisdom?
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
Do you watch TV at all?
Githae Githinji
I do.
Tyler Cowen
What do you watch?
Githae Githinji
Local things.
Tyler Cowen
Like movies, or news, or just everything?
Githae Githinji
I’m not much of — movies, not so much.
Tyler Cowen
What language do you watch in? Kikuyu or English or?
Githae Githinji
Any.
Tyler Cowen
Any?
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
Whatever’s on.
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
Do you like foreign shows, or do you like Kenya shows?
Githae Githinji
Any. The only thing is, if it’s interesting, I do watch.
Tyler Cowen
What would make a show interesting for you? What should the topic be?
Githae Githinji
If it’s mostly talking about how I — our way of living, that is. I do like it very much because I do like getting more experience on how to stay with people.
Tyler Cowen
Your children, they live in Kenya? Yes.
Githae Githinji
Yes, they live in Kenya.
Tyler Cowen
How many do you have?
Githae Githinji
Me, I have two.
Tyler Cowen
Great. What do they do?
Githae Githinji
One is married. Both of them are girls. One is married, the other one is in school.
Tyler Cowen
They live near here?
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
That’s great.
Githae Githinji
That one, I live with her at my place.
Tyler Cowen
What do you think is the next thing you will try to do for your community?
Githae Githinji
Well, I would say I will just try to go ahead with giving them or showing them the way we should be living here. Living in a peaceful way.
Tyler Cowen
If you compare the views you have now to the views you had as a young person, what have you changed your mind about in life?
Githae Githinji
I’ve changed my mind because now I know how to stay with people, good living.
Tyler Cowen
You understand other people better?
Githae Githinji
Yes, more than.
Tyler Cowen
You see the importance of helping them cooperate.
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
Do you have any questions for me?
Githae Githinji
Yes, I can ask you one.
Tyler Cowen
Please.
Githae Githinji
Do you stay here in Tatu City? Do you work in Tatu City, or you are just a visitor?
Tyler Cowen
I am just a visitor. I’m an old friend of Stephen Jennings, and I’ve never been to Kenya before. This is my first time. I wanted very much to come, and I knew Stephen here, so I thought I would see him, so I’m here for five to six days. My wife is coming, and then I go on safari with her. That’s my story here.
Githae Githinji
That’s good. This Stephen Jennings is your good friend.
Tyler Cowen
He and I worked together over 30 years ago.
Githae Githinji
Oh, that’s good.
Tyler Cowen
I had not seen him in a long time either, because he was in many distant places, and I live in America, near Washington, D.C.
Githae Githinji
If at all he is your friend, just go and tell him to help our boys who are here, who are unemployed.
Tyler Cowen
How do you think he should do that?
Githae Githinji
Well, as a community, he can look for a way, if you have employment here, you can just let us know, and we ship these boys of ours here. You can also help us with educating some of these young boys who need help.
Tyler Cowen
What do you think the rest of the world should know about Kenya, that they don’t know?
Githae Githinji
Well, the only thing in Kenya — the only problem we do have in Kenya is only employment.
Tyler Cowen
You want to see more foreign businesses come to create more jobs?
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
More Chinese investments.
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
More Americans who work at Tatu City.
Githae Githinji
If you could have more jobs, and you have more investors to come here and invest in us, when they’re coming to invest, we also benefit from the creation of jobs and whatever, because we have a lot of young people who are more educated, but they don’t have a living because they don’t have jobs here.
Tyler Cowen
Last question. Are you optimistic about Kenya, and if so, why? Are you optimistic about Kenya? You think the future will be better?
Githae Githinji
Yes.
Tyler Cowen
Why?
Githae Githinji
Because according to what I believe, as we are learning, we are learning how to shape our country in the best way possible. Whether in hard times or good times, we have to face all the challenges, and we have to make our country better. We have also to invite your friends to come and help us also, in one way or another, because east or west, home is the best.
Tyler Cowen
Githae Githinji, thank you very much.
Githae Githinji
Thank you, also.